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Post by Holodoc on Feb 17, 2002 0:27:10 GMT -5
The Doctor: Can he or can't he? Should he or shouldn't he? The debate continues from the Featuring Harry Kim thread...! |
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Post by Dr. Jekyl on Feb 17, 2002 0:36:02 GMT -5
Firstly, let's look at that ever-ambiguous concept of sentience. It's been determined that in Star Trek, as today, that in order for something to be deemed sentient, then it must meet three criteria. It must be intelligent, self-aware and conscious.
The Doctor can be shown to meet these three criteria - he's obviously intelligent (which includes being able to learn, speculate & adapt to new situations); is aware that he is a separate individual from those around him and that his actions have consequences (self-aware) and has come as close as we've seen in Star Trek as being able to prove he possesses consciousness through his possession of Seven of Nine in 'Body and Soul'. He is arguably sentient - though it's a debatable that he was at first (mind you, a human child can't truly be considered sentient until around age 3). However, the Voyager computer is not, to our knowledge, because while it may possess a rudimentary intelligence, it lacks the other two qualities. Sheer processing power means nada.
(TBC)
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Post by Dr. Jekyl on Feb 17, 2002 0:38:49 GMT -5
Secondly, in regards to how real or not the EMH may feel as opposed to a human, there are a couple of things to consider. Firstly, Zimmerman prides himself on his attention to detail - a trait which transferred over to the EMH - so you can only imagine what exactly he put into his masterpiece, even if it was only going to be used for the short term. This also links to something else we see in Star Trek a lot: human or, at the least, 'organic' doctors. Star Trek has never to my recollection used a virtual physician before, implying that people in the era don't feel comfortable with the idea, even if the technology is at the level where it can probably do it better. It therefore stands to reason that Zimmerman, somewhat socially deficient though he may be, recognized this and went to great lengths to see that the EMH felt as real and reassuring as possible. Someone who can use raw data, psych-test responses and a bit of observation to create a near-exact copy of a someone's personality (as he intended in 'Dr. Bashir, I Presume') to run a computer program (not to mention the reasoning behind doing so) is going to have a fair idea of the impact of this sort of thing... if not the impact of his own personality.
As to the Doc lacking limitations - he has plenty. Just on the purely physical side of things, it has been established that he doesn't feel things the same way we do, lacks a sense of smell (though probably possesses some sort of chemical analysis mechanism) and has limited ability to taste (as with smell) and likes the way we perceive them much better. They're probably muted to him, or so full of detail and analysis that the overall picture or sensation is lost, even with interaction on the Holodeck. As to looking and feeling like a human - certainly in most ways because a virtual physician needs to to make his patients feel comfortable. Hence the EMH appears to breathe... but probably doesn't have a heart-beat and almost certainly doesn't have a personal body odor - there's nothing to produce it.
Then the Doc has a mile-long list of programming limitations and short-falls. He is, after all, the prototype. He can be tampered with by almost anyone; his memory, mind and even body altered with relatively incredible ease. A push of a button can radically alter his sense of self, and odds are he won't even know anything happened.
He started out with a basic personality that most people didn't like, and it was only though pushing on the part of Kes and some conscious effort that he became easier to get along with. He had an adult intellect with all the emotional maturity of a two-year old and a hefty dose of insecurity to boot. He may know almost everything there is to know about medicine and applications thereof, but he was not prepared in the slightest to have to deal with life outside of his field. <br>
He lacks the grounding in the intricacies of life and relationships we take for granted. By nature he is incredibly ordered and therefore has trouble with situations that have no real rules or sequence of events with rational outcomes. Even in 'Someone to Watch Over Me', it can be argued that he's trying to reduce romance into a specific formula, though the ordered lessons were the easiest way for Seven to learn. Yes, he's learning to 'be human' very quickly and overcoming this, but then he's being forced to - look at the situation he's been thrown into. <br>
Sure, the Doctor can walk on walls and do all sorts of cool things and is making leaps and bounds ahead in removing some of his limitations, but not all of them. At the heart he is still very much an inherently flawed character with strong limitations, and that's one of the reasons why he's my favourite character.
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Post by Christina on Feb 17, 2002 6:35:26 GMT -5
I personally feel there is a lot more to being 'alive' than the 3 scientific criteria listed in Star Trek.
But I have great difficulty in pinning them down in words.
The writers and producers slimmed their definitions down in order to be able to do episodes about the nature of life, slavery and so on using 'non alive' artificial contructs like Data and The Doctor to explore their ideas.
Would Measure of a Man have worked if Maddox had been wanting to clone Geordi? No. Because our inner predjudices are so well programmed now against using other people for such purposes, they could only explore the issue with a machine like Data.
For me the nature of the EMH is that it is a highly sophisticated creation of computing power, photons and forcefields. It may give the appearance of being more 'alive' and 'human' than some other people at times, but, at the bottom, it is only the sum of its programming. And it never really exceeds it.
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Post by Holodoc on Feb 17, 2002 8:56:10 GMT -5
For me the nature of the EMH is that it is a highly sophisticated creation of computing power, photons and forcefields. It may give the appearance of being more 'alive' and 'human' than some other people at times, but, at the bottom, it is only the sum of its programming. And it never really exceeds it. I cover that as well in the Writings area of I, Holodoc  Wow I have to just send you guys over there so I don't have to write the same stuff again LOL. There is my take on the history of The EMH Mark I. Note there is a slight alteration in the timeline to accommodate a sim I was in. But the nature of the emergency medical hologram (that was deliberate) is still consistent. Then there's the 2379 Ruling, which covers sentience and the move to limit it in order to ensure that there is no question between creations being sentient and acting convincingly sentient. These and the EMH FAQ were made with a great deal of thought in mind, and reflect my definitive position. |
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Post by Christina on Feb 17, 2002 9:12:54 GMT -5
I've read them.
As Voyager ends in 2377, anything after that is conjecture.
I agree with the ruling in Author Author.
After that I'm staying silent.
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Post by Holodoc on Feb 17, 2002 9:35:04 GMT -5
I've read them. As Voyager ends in 2377, anything after that is conjecture. I agree with the ruling in Author Author. After that I'm staying silent. Oh, I agree it's conjecture. But it addresses the question of whether the EMH is a sentient race or species, created inadvertently. |
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Post by NeelixtheCat on Feb 19, 2002 2:12:39 GMT -5
Dr Jekyll, I don't deny the EMH sentience. I am merely bothered by the attempts to humanize him to an extent such that he is indistinguisable from humans. Why should he after all have body temperature warmth and taste sensors ?? The idea is that he is an emergency medical hologram and you are violating "KISS" already by making assumptions on how Zimmerman created the EMH. It makes no sense; and you must reach into the magic hat to explain how his body temperature is produced, and why it is even there in the first place. BTW, in "Blink" we never really learned the nature of his "family", and we never learned whether the Holodoc can reproduce, ( as there is a cryptic mention of a son. ), whether he fooled the Blink family into thinking he was a "Blink" species, or whether they were in on the scam. He could have been a social worker or married someone out of convenience to avoid deportation.  As for sentience, it seems to arise directly out of an increasing complexity and number of neurons in the brain. Somewhere along the evolutionary chain, along with the increased neuronal processing power, there also arose a form of self awareness that perhaps added order to the chaos of complexity. So I would disagree with you there; sheer processing power means everything. |
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Post by NeelixtheCat on Feb 19, 2002 2:28:25 GMT -5
Secondly, in regards to how real or not the EMH may feel as opposed to a human, there are a couple of things to consider. Firstly, Zimmerman prides himself on his attention to detail - a trait which transferred over to the EMH - so you can only imagine what exactly he put into his masterpiece, even if it was only going to be used for the short term. This also links to something else we see in Star Trek a lot: human or, at the least, 'organic' doctors. Star Trek has never to my recollection used a virtual physician before, implying that people in the era don't feel comfortable with the idea, even if the technology is at the level where it can probably do it better. It therefore stands to reason that Zimmerman, somewhat socially deficient though he may be, recognized this and went to great lengths to see that the EMH felt as real and reassuring as possible. Someone who can use raw data, psych-test responses and a bit of observation to create a near-exact copy of a someone's personality (as he intended in 'Dr. Bashir, I Presume') to run a computer program (not to mention the reasoning behind doing so) is going to have a fair idea of the impact of this sort of thing... if not the impact of his own personality. As to the Doc lacking limitations - he has plenty. Just on the purely physical side of things, it has been established that he doesn't feel things the same way we do, lacks a sense of smell (though probably possesses some sort of chemical analysis mechanism) and has limited ability to taste (as with smell) and likes the way we perceive them much better. They're probably muted to him, or so full of detail and analysis that the overall picture or sensation is lost, even with interaction on the Holodeck. As to looking and feeling like a human - certainly in most ways because a virtual physician needs to to make his patients feel comfortable. Hence the EMH appears to breathe... but probably doesn't have a heart-beat and almost certainly doesn't have a personal body odor - there's nothing to produce it. Then the Doc has a mile-long list of programming limitations and short-falls. He is, after all, the prototype. He can be tampered with by almost anyone; his memory, mind and even body altered with relatively incredible ease. A push of a button can radically alter his sense of self, and odds are he won't even know anything happened. He started out with a basic personality that most people didn't like, and it was only though pushing on the part of Kes and some conscious effort that he became easier to get along with. He had an adult intellect with all the emotional maturity of a two-year old and a hefty dose of insecurity to boot. He may know almost everything there is to know about medicine and applications thereof, but he was not prepared in the slightest to have to deal with life outside of his field. <br> He lacks the grounding in the intricacies of life and relationships we take for granted. By nature he is incredibly ordered and therefore has trouble with situations that have no real rules or sequence of events with rational outcomes. Even in 'Someone to Watch Over Me', it can be argued that he's trying to reduce romance into a specific formula, though the ordered lessons were the easiest way for Seven to learn. Yes, he's learning to 'be human' very quickly and overcoming this, but then he's being forced to - look at the situation he's been thrown into. <br> Sure, the Doctor can walk on walls and do all sorts of cool things and is making leaps and bounds ahead in removing some of his limitations, but not all of them. At the heart he is still very much an inherently flawed character with strong limitations, and that's one of the reasons why he's my favourite character. Dr. Jekyll, But the EMH's *main* limitation was that he was a wonderful piece of programming and merely composed of light. His struggle loses power and flavor say if he is indistinguishable from a human, from having as you say, the tactile feel of a human and apparent human functions. So the limitations you describe for the EMH could also apply to say Data, making the EMH a cookie cutter character. |
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Post by Holodoc on Feb 19, 2002 8:06:02 GMT -5
Dr. Jekyll, But the EMH's *main* limitation was that he was a wonderful piece of programming and merely composed of light. His struggle loses power and flavor say if he is indistinguishable from a human, from having as you say, the tactile feel of a human and apparent human functions. I've mentioned already that one should not take the hologram as "light" issue literally, that there's far more to what constitutes modern holography and that he in no way resembles what we define as holograms within our timeframe. The Doctor isn't just "a trick of light," and that archaic notion cannot be taken into account when considering his attributes and abilities. Actually, I got a kick out his demonstration in Phage, when he showed Paris that he wasn't just a projection to justify creating holographic lungs for Neelix. btw did you read that excerpt from the Doctor's upcoming book (it says he wrote it and just told Picardo  )?  But seriously folks... This underscores the one major obstacle in the Doctor's existence: people who underestimate him: his abilities, his potential, his hopes and dreams, his very capability for any of these things. People in the 24th century didn't think he had potential either, but at least they knew the effectiveness of the physical illusion when they stepped into a holosuite or on a holodeck. |
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Post by Dr. Jekyl on Mar 20, 2002 10:05:16 GMT -5
Time to ressurect this thread, methinks.
Now, this argument, to my mind, raises a couple of questions. The first is the more obvious - when do you draw the line between merely acting 'alive' and sentient and truely being it? Also, what gives you the right to decide such a thing? And isn't it so much easier to justify using something without thought by deeming it to be sub-human?
Also, say for a moment that the Doctor is merely the sum of his programming. Can't the sum of all those subroutines in and of themselves be a sentient, alive being?
I suppose it really comes down to what you think is alive. I'm not a relgious person, or even a particularly spirtual person, and I don't believe in souls.
It also raises some interesting other ethical questions. If they're not alive, do we have carte blanche right to use them as we choose, even if we've managed to give them something that might be considered intelligence and/or emotions, human qualities? If we create them to be like us, should we be surprised when they act like us so well it's hard to tell the difference? Do we have any responsibility to them?
From that, it's worth noting that in many cultures in the modern world, even animals - sub-humans - have rights and are not allowed to be mistreated.
Ah, but you see, there is a very large difference between Data and the EMH. Data has an essentially 'more human' starting point - that is, he is combination of hardware and software, rather than just being the one, as Doc is. Data is self-contained, therefore making it easier for people to view him as an alive entity, whereas the Doc is purely software and reliant on a variety of external systems to exist. He can be switched off and cease to have a physical presence, where Data can not, and we as humans tend to set a fair store in physical presence.
Also, only one 'l' in Jekyl, please ;D
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Post by Holodoc on Mar 20, 2002 19:41:12 GMT -5
Time to ressurect this thread, methinks. Ah, but you see, there is a very large difference between Data and the EMH. Data has an essentially 'more human' starting point - that is, he is combination of hardware and software, rather than just being the one, as Doc is. Data is self-contained, therefore making it easier for people to view him as an alive entity, whereas the Doc is purely software and reliant on a variety of external systems to exist. He can be switched off and cease to have a physical presence, where Data can not, and we as humans tend to set a fair store in physical presence. Ah, however... First of all, in TNG they discovered so many nonhuman and nonorganic life forms and treated them with respect. That series was the how-to of coexistence. In keeping with the philosophy (partially motivated by the still-living Roddenberry), TNG set an example of an enlightened society which treated all with respect, and ferreted out the bigwigs in the organization who forgot what their uniform stood for. This would include not only judging others by their level of ANYTHING, but judging us by how we treat others of any sort. Being allowed to abuse or enslave mindless drones of any species would demean what the Federation stood for. Seems like B&B forgot that little detail. Now, Data was interesting, because he was sentient, yet lacked the human qualities in experiencing and responding to experiences. This became a learning process and then a jump when he was given added capabilities in the movies. The Doctor from day one might have appeared to mimic human behavior, but it became clear - particularly when his perceptions and interests (nonsentient being cannot have interests or be interested in anything. That requires a consciousness and a sense of self to warrant preferences) went beyond what was entered into him as programming, and were non-medical in nature. When the behavior and actions transcend the programming - that means that there isn't just expansion on the inherent abilities, but new, entirely unrelated abilities and activities are adopted - like singing, painting, photography... then there's no doubt about the presence of a sentient entity. You'd have a hard time proving otherwise unless you're a bigot and discriminate by color, molecular composition, religion or lack thereof, how the being came to be. |
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